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A friend from the Orthosphere, apparently unfamiliar with the Secular Right, seems to think topics such as evolutionary psychology, HBD, and “game” are unhelpful in countering the regnant soul-crushing left liberal zeitgeist we’ve come to know as the Cathedral. I was going to respond by email, but the email got too long—as you will see, way too long. So I decided to respond here, in keeping with this blog’s principal two-fold mission: a) document the consensus between the various branches of reactionary thought; and b) blog everything I spend more than half an hour or so on.
First, from the horses’ mouths, I review some of the many words of our supposedly unhelpful friends on the Secular Right on topics the seem to be of interest to the Orthosphere.
Dennis Mangan, atheist, Secular Right Blogger
Behind the Falling Japanese Birthrate:
Marriage has traditionally had a component of economic partnership, and when young women are capable of making as much money as young men, their interest in those young men drops. This is in part the idea behind hypergamy.
What is to be done? I believe that pornography does more harm to society than most observers have realized so far. A healthy society would try to limit or even ban it, though whether that can be done as a practical matter is another story. But it doesn’t seem as if anyone has tried.
So, porn is addictive at least in the sense that it causes habituation, i.e. a stronger dose is needed to cause the same effect as a lower dose did previously. This causes heavy porn users to lose interest in sex with a real woman, or become incapable of it.
Humans have learned how to intervene in the brain circuits that evolved to produce evolutionary desirable outcomes. Pornography, drugs including alcohol and nicotine, violent video games, junk foods that stimulate food reward, gambling, even successful stock trading: all of these stimulate dopaminergic neurons that cause pleasure. We thus get the pleasure without the outcome, or with radically altered and undesirable outcomes like ED and obesity. Also, the evolutionary-desired outcomes are short-circuited, in this case reproduction, although men’s sexual desire isn’t the bottleneck in the frequency of sex; it’s women’s. Even so, this wasn’t predicted to be among the consequences to widespread availability of porn, so it remains to be seen what consequences flow from this in turn.
That being said, I’ve little doubt that girls are in trouble, though the idea that eating disorders and self-harm are the greatest dangers seems quite wrong. Obesity and incurable vanity, basically the opposite, seem far bigger problems. The expert says that “the toxic influences” of ads, celebrities, and porn cause these problems, and that the solution is for older women, “aunties”, to become more involved with and mentor these girls.
I submit that these older women are part of the problem, and as such, their involvement will only worsen the situation. Likely, many of these troubled girls are being raised by single mothers, most of whom got that way through their own poor choices, though egged on by society. And does anyone think that many or most of these mothers are not themselves wholly enslaved to ads and celebrities, as well as influenced by porn?
The real problem isn’t anorexia or cutting, it’s that these girls are being brought up to ride the Carousel, to look down on family life, to treat abortion as a sacrament, and to reject beta providers in favor of violent jerks. Both society and the girls’ mothers are complicit in this, and no number of “aunties” will solve that particular problem.
Why Do Parents Let Their Daughters Dress Like Sluts?:
Writing in the left-wing WSJ, Jennifer Moses asks, in yet another thumbsucker about modern manners and morals, Why Do We Let Them Dress Like That? Like how? According to Moses, “like prostitutes”.
Yet in the entirety of her screed, she never once speaks of doing anything to stop her own teenage daughter from dressing like a prostitute. On the contrary, she relishes the opportunity to aid and abet her daughter’s slutty dress:
In my own case, when I see my daughter in drop-dead gorgeous mode, I experience something akin to a thrill—especially since I myself am somewhat past the age to turn heads.
Especially since she’s past the age to turn heads. Elsewhere she talks about not wanting to be accused of hypocrisy because she and her peers went through the era of the sexual revolution – even though she hints that she regrets her behavior. In other words, it’s all about this woman, so typical of narcissistic boomers who, even though they now have got at least a glimpse of what it means to do the right thing, refuse to rein in their daughters because that would be “hypocritical”.
I wouldn’t want us to return to the age of the corset or even of the double standard, because a double standard that lets the promiscuous male off the hook while condemning his female counterpart is both stupid and destructive. If you’re the campus mattress, chances are that you need therapy more than you need condemnation.
No further excuses needed to let your daughter dress like a whore, because not allowing her to would be tantamount to rolling back the clock, when the nation was conservative and Christian. Nothing can be allowed to stand in the way of progress, not even your children’s welfare.
Would that more than a small handful of cranky, marginalized Christian pastors could speak with the frankness and authority of atheist Dennis Mangan.
James A. Donald, atheist, Secular Right Blogger
On what used to be called marriage:
My personal observation is that every successful marriage is quietly and furtively eighteenth century, so thoroughly politically incorrect as to be illegal.
And a little reflection reveals that the New Testament/eighteenth century form of marriage, in which both parties give consent to sex once and forever, and the wife submits to the husband, is simply the only kind that can work.
If the male does what is best for himself, and the female does what is best for herself, the outcome is likely to be unsatisfactory for both parties. To solve this problem, the New Testament commands an indissoluble contractual commitment to mutual support, and sexual availability, so that, once married, you are stuck with each other, for better or worse, and required to have sex according to the other’s desire.
Neoreactionaries, all of them, respect the past. Traditional solutions derive from Nature, or, some would say, from Nature’s God, and embody unspoken and difficult to explain wisdom. Sweeping them aside was apt to have disastrous consequences, and, in substantial part, did have disastrous consequences.
Reactionaries, all of them, are realists, seeing the real, not the official truth.
Neoreactionaries, all of them, recognize that races are different, the sexes are different, and man is a hierarchical animal.
Neoreactionaries, all of them, regard the official truth, the Cathedral as highly unlikely to have any connection to the truth, indeed as evil and insane. If all academics and the New York Times agree on X, the neoreactionary assumption is that X is likely to be a lie. The only way one would get such agreement is if it is enforced, and, if enforced, must be untrue.
If Christianity is going to defend us against progressivism, where is the defense of Christianity against progressivism? Only Dalrock and Sunshine Mary are resisting the progressive takeover of Christianity, and they are heavily influenced and motivated by the atheist reactionary branch of the PUA movement. It is the atheists influencing Christians to put aside nihilism, rather than the other way around.
Civilization: Hold back the darkness:
If you have a plan for victory over progressivism, don’t think of making entitlements expand at a one percent slower rate, think of restoration of the basic requirements for civilization, think of civilization protecting itself by enforcing them against the savages and subhumans. Plan on jailing a significant number of government employees, and forcibly rusticating most of them. Plan on taking a good part of the criminal underclass and some of the welfare underclass permanently out of circulation.
Any plan for victory over progressivism has to start with firing most government employees, imprisoning those that say “you cannot fire me”, and similarly throwing most of the priesthood (by which I mean official science, public broadcasting, high status universities, and the like), off the government tit. This is necessarily going to be rather like a coup.Victory over progressivism means firing the old official priesthood, and hiring a new, saner, and substantially smaller, official priesthood. Changing the official priesthood is apt to result in a holy war, which can get very nasty indeed, although when the old priesthood is decadent, one can frequently get away with a single battle, as when the Regent of the King of Hawaii defeated the high priest. I am pretty sure today’s progressives are decadent, and have been decadent for over a century, so full scale holy war may well avoidable.
The fundamental realization of the Dark Enlightenment is that all men arenot created equal, not individual men, nor the various groups and categories of men, nor are women equal to men, that these beliefs and others like them are religious beliefs, that society is just as religious as ever it was, with an official state religion of progressivism, but this is a new religion, an evil religion, and, if you are a Christian, a demonic religion.
…
If authority required me to believe in Leprechauns, and to get along with people that it was important to get along with required me to believe in Leprechauns, I would probably believe in leprechauns, though not in the way that I believe in rabbits, but I can see people not being equal, whereas I cannot see leprechauns not existing.
It was the Puritans, and their descendent groups, a bunch of people that wore colorless clothes, black or dark brown with a few flashes of white, modeled after the costume of Cromwell, that caused everything to go to hell. When they got on top, re-establishing the puritan theocracy of Cromwell, now known as political correctness, everyone in power started imitating them, resulting in the modern business suit, so that it ceased to be a very reliable indicator. The rot set in when everyone important went monochrome. But to this day, if a businessman wears a bright flash of red and or gold in an otherwise orthodox formal business suit, for example the Koch brothers, it is at least a hint that he is rebelling against the rule of the progressives, whereas a predominantly dark blue tie in an orthodox business suit tends to indicate progressivism, as for example the Google founders. Puritans, now progressives, are near monochrome, avoid sharp color contrasts, tend to dark blue, grey, dark brown, and so forth. Their opponents, even to this day, tend to have a substantial flash of color, often red or gold, though the difference is no longer as reliable, consistent, and striking as it was in the days of roundheads versus cavaliers. Big hats are also a tell. Cowboy hats, top hats, sombreros and so forth, are not progressive and never have been, all the way from 1600 to the present. If anyone unironically puts on a cowboy hat, progressives will spontaneously burst into flames from insane rage – for example Bush derangement syndrome, even if they know or strongly suspect he is only pretending to not be a progressive.
Would that more than a handful of scattered conspiracy-minded Christians understood the depths of depravity unleashed in the West, and mourned the loss of Christian Civilization as much as atheist James Donald.
Roissy, aka. Heartiste, self-described Minion of Satan
The Fundamental Premise:
Eggs are expensive, sperm is cheap. Every psychological dynamic you see playing out in mass societies liberated from artificial constraints on the sexual market flows from this premise. This means, as a systemic matter, women are coddled, men are upbraided. Women are victims, men are victimizers. Women need a leg up, men need to man up. Women have advocacy groups, men have equal opportunity violations. A woman subjected to the indignity of eavesdropping on a tame joke about dongles makes national news, while the chilling fact that 95% of all workplace deaths are suffered by men barely pings the media consciousness.
The prosperity America achieved will be her undoing. This isn’t idle apocalyptic talk. There is plenty of historical precedent. There are plenty of indicators that cultural and economic and lifestyle collapse are beginning their long march through the Western citizenry and institutions. The armies of disintegration have amassed and the first waves have stormed the citadel. Aided and abetted by people who don’t understand the forces at work, and who wouldn’t change direction even if they did understand. Prosperity is enervating. The will to dismantle it, temporarily, to save it, is weakened totally by the comforts it provides.
America is dying. Unless the powerful divest themselves from their voracious egos and accept that they have been steeped in a mountain of lies for 60 years, perhaps 150 years depending on your point of origin, and until that day they reverse the path they have taken this country, America’s slow, asphyxiating dying will finally, unmercifully, reach closure… in her death. Today, the Lords of Lies are our masters. Tomorrow, the truth will reign, over a rejuvenated America or a bitter wasteland. Either way, the truth will reign.
Are The Cads Outbanging The Dads?:
A society of both cad ascendance and civilization is unsustainable and incompatible. One or the other will go, and the pendulum with either swing back to dads or civilization will regress to accommodate the rise of women choosing cads. All social and economic indicators (particularly the debt overhang), and my personal experience in the bowels of the dating market, lead me to be pessimistic about a happy resolution to this building tension.
In sum, the white ruling class lost its sense of shared destiny and obligation, and the white working class lost its kindred alpha male to emulate. The cultural eugenic program has morphed from one to lift the weakest tribe members and humble the strongest tribe members, to one in which the strong tribe members have decided to kill off or banish to the wastelands the weaker tribe members.
This is not a recipe for national greatness. Or even survival.
At this point, I don’t think there is any saving America from decline and obsolescence. We are on a trajectory eerily similar to that of past empires which have risen and fallen. It’s almost as if there’s an immutable, unchanging, universal human nature at work that has been the guiding force in world matters since we left the jungle upright.
I will say this: if there is any hope of salvation, any way out of the death spiral we’re slipping down, the Lords of Lies must be defeated, by pen or by post. It matters not how the job is done; they simply must be ousted from power and deprived of influence, or, more generously, convinced of the error of their ways and reformed to the side of Light, if America is to have a chance at redemption. The mediocre masses and the vulgarians will not abandon their memetic medication and hypocritical self-aggrandizement until they see a glimmer of new leadership, new voices, that permit them the courage to think clearly and say so with strength of conviction.
The first step begins now:
Men and women are radically different along many important psychological and physical dimensions.
Not all men are created equal.
Some men really are worth more than others.
Some cultures really are better than others.
Some people can handle the task of building and maintaining prosperous civilization better than other people.
Trust is a perishable quantity vital to an orderly, wealth-generating society. It does not grow with persuasion, coercion, sloganeering, or after-school specials. It is organically emergent and intimately tied to relatedness: cultural, moral and, yes, biological.
There is no such thing as a proposition nation, only propositions that can be affirmed or refuted.
High-minded ideals must fall when they are proven unworkable, or millions will die, soul or body, in service to their continued justification.The gradual feminization of the culture, the workplace, academia, government, media outlets and even family life has not been an unalloyed good. Quite the opposite; the observed evidence better fits the theory that elevating the female disposition and particular talents to sainthood in all facets of life has taken us down a dystopian road, as we can see in the rise of single momhood, sky-high safety net deficit spending, limp-wristed SWPLs, male cocooning and dropping out, and stagnating technological innovation.
Privilege is a good thing. Men build nations so that they may codify their privilege and enjoy it, and pass it on to their posterity. Those who rail against this privilege should be shunned and invited to leave and build their own nations more suited to their tastes.
God may be dead, but his copybook headings hold illimitable dominion over all.
The ego is the greatest enemy man has ever faced.
These truths I’ve outlined, currently buried in a mile-deep bunker by custodians of the Temple of Lies, aren’t just idle musings. They have policy implications. Deny them at your peril.
Would that more so-called “conservative” Christians cared for the truth about human nature and civilizational survival as much as “Minion of Satan” Roissy.
My Comments
No advanced civilization can survive long without the Ten Commandments. St. Paul makes it clear that the law of God is written on the hearts of all men. I think Bruce Charlton is overly simplistic in thinking that a return to Christianity (whatever that might in fact even mean) is the (singular) answer. How did Greece come to dominance in the world? How did Rome? All of the ancients had a robust and mature view of all the earthly virtues. Christian and Jews cannot take credit for having invented them.
Prudence, Justice, Temperance, and Fortitude have been grafted onto the Christian faith as the Natural Virtues. St. Thomas Aquinas, following Augustine, relies heavily upon ancient pagan thought and common reason. Christianity brings nothing new to the table of public order that wasn’t already well-known, that isn’t well-known to any man who thinks rationally about public order. Christianity baptizes all truth, wherever it may be found, as God’s truth.
Of course, Christianity brings also a Savior, and by him a means of grace; correspondingly an ideal kingdom will certainly be one in which its leaders honor Christ foremost. But this doesn’t explain the success of such “godless” modern states such as Japan and lately China any more than it explains the failures of “Christian” ones such as Spain and Greece.
Men and nations rise and fall according to their own virtue, to how well they respond to the reality by which God has spoken to them. Some have received Divine Revelation. Some have not. But every man has received enough to live uprightly; and every nation has received enough to order itself well. The common good and adaptive fitness are two sides of the same coin. If not, how can anyone tell one from the other?
So of what use is the Secular Right? (Truth be told, they often ask the same of us!) Well, as you can see from the above, they are correct and articulate on many issues of concern to the Orthosphere; nearly all of them that happen to “touch earth” by my count.
In response to Jim Donald, Bonald recently commented at the Orthosphere, “In that case, the Dark Enlightenment and the Orthosphere are carrying out a useful division of labor. Liberalism makes both empirical and non-empirical claims. Both are false and pernicious, and we’ve got a group of people working to debunk each.”
Jim Donald published a Magnum Opus on Natural Law back in like 1993, when I was not yet even a neo-con. Read it and tell me where he disagrees fundamentally with Aquinas on the matter. I’m not saying he doesn’t, but he comes to remarkably similar to conclusions. Why because Jim Donald and Aquinas (and Augustine and Aristotle and St. Paul before them) believe at least what their own eyes tell them. Each one, every single one, is a realist. Everyone single one has a positive disposition toward truth, as it is, wherever it lies, wherever it leads.
The truth is real. The best and brightest of the Secular Right get that. And what of the less than best and brightest? Well, you don’t have to read them.
Jim Donald goes farther than most in advocating officially state sponsored religion. Why? Because it is the natural state of a people to have a shared religion. And Official Religions, because they are official, are much more benign than Unofficial official religions such as we have today (Liberal Christianity). I make the same point in a previous post, that a religious heritage works best when it stays clear of the extremes of rigor (phariseeism) and laxity (pietism). Modern Liberal Christianity is the absolute worst aspects of both.
In case you haven’t noticed, we live in a culture now completely dominated by lies, regarding the sexes, regarding race, regarding economics, regarding politics, regarding equality, regarding health and happiness and meaning in life. Those who can see through those lies, articulate a response, and fight against them are our friends, irrespective of the divergence in our prior metaphysical commitments.
Every road out of Jerusalem, is also a road into it.
Agree.
Do you agree Christ without Constantine would have been a historical footnote? It would have disappeared when the Empire finally collapsed due to Military and economic exhaustion.
If you want the best – and quite short – read on why the Western Empire collapsed read Edward Luttwak’s “Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire”. It was after all a military defeat.
If you also want to know why Byzantium’s Empire went on longer [hint Territorial Defense Forces] then read the follow on recent “Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire.” Fck Gibbon, Byzantium kicked ass. Gibbon hated Catholics so blindly he vilified Byzantium far beyond all it’s defects and blinded himself and centuries of students to it’s many virtues.
America for instance bears far more resemblance to Byzantium than Greece or Rome. In other words it’s both.
If you wish Dark Enlightenment on other matters, read “Coup De E’tat.”.
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It’s the anti-Christian elements of the Reaction that make me release the safety catch of my Browning.
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Torq,
Which is all it would take. BTW consider something Glocky…glock, SW MP, springfield…safeties are for inferior shooters and weapons. Mind you nothing against the genius of Browning. And the pointability is fantastic.
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Nick, recall that Charlton is talking about a return to religion. The ‘simplification’ could take the form of something other than Christianity. Were the ancient Greeks or Romans anti-religion? Are the Muslims? No, thus their civilizations were/are sustainable.
Mangan is generally a friendly voice from the Secular Right. But why choose Roissy of all people to add to this list above? I mean, of all people? The man who suggested simulated rape (with blade) as a way to heighten sexual gratification. Or having sex in an old cemetery to accomplish the same. Who once described an incident where he hit one of his girlfriends, saying only to trust him that it was deserved. Who once told of a sexual encounter he had with a married woman while hiking, providing graphic detail. He’s constantly giving readers a look into his mind leaving no doubt. He once wrote about a redneck family visiting DC whose rudeness on an escalator made him envision how he wished the descending stairs, while merging with the floor, would tear the flesh from their bones. He once approvingly cited a reader’s story where the reader used “game” by deliberately lying to his girlfriend (by falsely accusing her of cheating, backed up by anonymous roses sent to her by him), devastating her so he could go carousing with his buddies for a weekend only to make up with her afterwards. I could go on. And on and on. But i guess Roissy gets the big picture right, that’s what counts. So what is his solution? He’s told us:
No, the solution is to give the New Girl Order exactly what it wants: Game, and an army of cads that practice it. Force feed the beast until it is choking on its own gluttony. The emissaries of the Great Lie must have the consequences of their ignorance and treachery shoved down their throats. In time, the unabashed pursuit of hedonism and the embrace of Darwinistic nihilism (two potent forces which, coincidentally, happen to have truth and pleasure on their side. Exhibit B: God is dead) will raze the neoliberal monolith to the ground, and from the ashes the eternal human cycle will begin anew, strengthened and revitalized. A complete reconciliation with our tragic destiny gives us the only chance to avoid it.
James Donald had a fascinating thread on religion and reaction last September and Bruce Charlton summed up Roissy this way:
‘Roissy’ is a servant of evil; and quite honestly if you can’t perceive that, then you are in a bad way, and I have been misjudging you. It is a no brainer, a gut feeling of revulsion, a matter of the heart and soul. Think Caligula, think Nero. Nothing to discuss.
http://blog.jim.com/culture/religion-and-reaction.html
Larry Auster said essentially the exact same thing and when those two say the same thing about the same person the chances of it being wrong approach zero very quickly.
And speaking of James Donald, he seems to be one of the few of the secular right who are actually interested in what’s going on on our side. Do a search of Charlton’s blog on his name and he’ll pop up all over the place. Read some of the exchanges and you can get a good sense of what can be gained. But to me the possibilities seem underwhelming. See these for instance, but there are many others:
http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-decline-in-institutional-christian.html
http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2012/08/if-people-violate-natural-law-because.html
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Donald has been all over the Orthosphere lately, as well. He seems to have given up on writing us off. If I have had even a small part in helping him maintain some hope for Christianity, then my efforts will not have been in vain.
I’m sure that Charlton has said enough in various times in places to be subject to nuance. But I have seen him characterize the ONLY choice as being between: Traditional Christianity, Secular Leftism, and Islam. That is, I think, a false trichotomy.
Why choose Roissy? Were the comments I lifted from him “unhelpful”? All truth is God’s truth… even from a so-called “Minion of Satan.” And it isn’t as though his constant drum-beat on evolutionary psychology is “unhelpful” either, tho’ I’ll admit it is a bit more controversial among the gentler souls of the Orthosphere. Certainly Dalrock and Vox Day do a better job of translating it to Chistianese better than Roissy, but that doesn’t mean they are saying largely the same thing at the theoretical level.
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Quoting Roissy approvingly unhelpful? I’ll put it this way: it puts in mind someone who was once asked by a reader what he would do if he (unintentionally of course) got one of his girlfriends pregnant. The answer was to calmly sit her down and patiently and tenderly explain to her all the disadvantages of single motherhood for her and the child, like he was whispering sweet nothings into her ear, in order to convince her to get an abortion. And if she refused, to move himself and all his assets out of the country. And that’s God’s truth. Another one is that he offers us nothing of value that we can’t get from two dozen other writers or bloggers, traditionalist or secular, without all the heinousness.
I enjoy the back and forth between Charlton and Donald. I feel like here we have one of the smartest guys from each side calmly working away at the issues and we get to watch. But if you follow the discussions all the way through, they never lead anywhere. One side would have to stipulate the other, even if they don’t believe it, in order to get passed the outer layers to explore the heart of matters.
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Well, I don’t see what the cad story has to do with Roissy. He’s on record as not wanting a society where women are free (“empowered” I believe is the term of art) to put out for guys like him. In a traditional world, in which I and (apparently) Roissy and presumably the entire Orthosphere happen to want to live, a woman who got knocked up outside of wedlock would have no legal claim whatsoever on the man’s possessions. Therefore such a man would not be tempted to “pack up” and leave; and might of even his own volition see to the care of his bastard spawn out of whatever goodness he might have in his heart. (Which of course happened all the freaking prior to about 1910.) Under such a regime, therefore a fortiori, a woman would be far, FAR less likely to get into that situation in the first place… which is the ENTIRETY of the point.
Unfortunately we live in a world where actual contracts (aka., marriages) are NOT enforced (routinely torn up… ignored… written in Martian I guess), and the precise absence of a contract IS brought down on the head of men, upon pains of garnishment or jail… all for the oh-so-powerful empowering of women. Can’t blame a guy for recognizing a rigged game when he sees it.
If Christians actually cared, they would fix their own houses first. It would dramatically drive up the market prices for guys like Roissy. Hell, they might even have to get married to get a steady supply of poon. Imagine that. It’d be like a different planet.
Jim Donald is on record as favoring an Official State Religion which would bar insufficiently believing people from holding office. Of course, he doesn’t want the bar too high either as that spawns the Holier than Thou escalations that explain much of the rise of modern leftism. I hardly think of that as “nowhere”. What the heck more do you want? He is quite beyond being merely “on our side” in this.
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The “someone” in the story was Roissy. A reader asked him what he would do if he got a girl pregnant. That was his answer.
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Right, I sorta got that. A guy responds rationally to an irrational marketplace. Whose to blame? Well both… of course… But that doesn’t answer the question: Were the quoted comments “unhelpful”? You’re changing the subject.
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I’m with Andrew re: Roissy.
I think the harm done by Roissy far outweighs any good.
It’s true that some of what Roissy says is insightful. But this will be true of any evil ideology. On the occasions I’ve been directed to his site, I could immediately sense that to continue reading him would not be good for my soul.
His ideology is very seductive to a certain type of person: not only is it a materialist reductionist philosophy, which appeals to many modern male scientistic types, but it also is obviously appealing because it promises to get men laid. And, part of what he says *is* true. This makes it all the more dangerous, because it makes it easier to swallow his lies. This is how Satan works, afterall, by mixing truth with lies. No doubt many souls have been lost through exposure to Roissy’s site.
Also, as a practical matter, why would we on the Christian traditionalist right want to be associated with something so vile? If we want to convince others that we are right, we need to point to the Good, the True, and the Beautiful, not to that which is ugly. To Roissy and his ilk, we ought to say, “Get thee behind me Satan!”
My perception is that what is true of Roissy is also generally true of the secular right: that is, since they are generally atheist, they promote a materialist, reductionist, nihilist view of reality. They might be right on sex differences and racial differences, but is that worth it when they deny the transcendent? Plus, as Andrew says, we can already get these things through Christian traditionalist sites. What exactly is the secular right adding?
I also sense that many on the secular right go beyond righteous anger and indignation and foster actual hatred and cynicism. This can’t be good.
(This may not be true of Mangan and Donald; I am not familiar with their writings).
I would suggest Larry Auster’s general policy vis-a-vis the secular right: if the atheists in question are at least respectful of Christianity and recognize the central role Christianity has played in shaping our civilization, then we can work together. If, on the other hand, they are openly hostile to Christianity and publicly mock it, we ought to have nothing to do with them.
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Yes, of course. As I said, quoting Roissy puts in mind someone who is better kept out of mind. Do we need Roissy for reactionary criticism? No. Plenty elsewhere. So unhelpful and unnecessary. He spits on the ideas of religion and God and thinks that women who don’t put out for religious reasons are psychologically troubled (he once met a girl who wouldn’t sleep with him because of her beliefs and he concluded that she must have had a damaged psyche, so his famed knowledge of women is only partial). If you think Roissy is a force for marriage, for patriarchy, for a traditionalist restoration, then you’re wrong.
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We have already stipulated Roissy is a “Minion of Satan” yet you still wish to find in him an impeccable source… You are not dealing with the question, Andrew. The question is when a “Minion of Satan” tells the truth, do we run for lies? What if he tells the truth on very specific topics in which we find the vast majority of so-called Christians lying (okay well either deliberately mendacious or utterly stupid)? Maybe that “Minion of Satan” thing is rather more schtick than substance…
If given the choice, who do we trust more: Roissy or Focus on the Family’s Glenn Stanton? Roissy or “Christian” marriage movies? Roissy or “Christian” pastor Mark Driscoll.
Obviously I trust Dalrock more than either… but that’s not the question.
I specifically quoted Roissy being for just this civilizational result. So I’m either not wrong, or you have a magic window into the soul of a person, whom you’ve presumably never met, which tells you when they’re lying and when they’re not.
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The question was not whether Roissy says he’s for something but whether he’s actually a force for that something.
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Hi Ian:
Thanks for visiting!
This is how Satan works, afterall, by mixing truth with lies. No doubt many souls have been lost through exposure to Roissy’s site.
Okay, so what about those links (to Dalrock) above? How many souls have been lost thru Focus on the Family, or the movie Fireproof, or the ministry of Mars Hill Church? More… or less, than Roissy?? After all, they’re all mixing truth with lies… Come on, gimme an estimate: Who condemns more souls to hell, the guy who believes (and advertises) the ordinary laws of morality do not apply to him? Or the guy who invents or propagates false ones in the name of Christ?
Honest amorality, in my opinion, is far less dangerous, that dishonest morality. That is, arguably, the most singular defect of The Cathedral: gussied up, institutionalized hypocrisy. A Randian world world would at least be honest at some level. A Cathedralized world is lies from top to bottom.
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@Andrew
Maybe this is just a Protestant vs. Catholic thing or a Grace vs. Nature thing or a Mysticism vs. Realism thing, but to me if only 2% of Roissy’s traffic are men who, because of reading him, have taken concrete and active steps to make themselves more manly (more proactive, more dominant, more stoical, physically stronger, more stable, more disciplined, masturbate less, more goal oriented, more realistic and comfortable in their own skin, less passive-agressive and wishy-washy and emotionally reactive, with better personal health and grooming habits), then I say he’s increased, on net, amount of virtue in the world. And that’s not even accounting for his (admittedly occasional) brilliant cultural analysis and defense of Traditional (i.e., Christian) culture. And I don’t have the actual statistics, but I’d bet it’s more than 2% (not 50% mind you, but probably more than 2%).
As I said, every road out of Jerusalem is also a road into it.
What do the greatest sinners and the greatest saints share in common? Their greatness.
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If you must sin, sin boldly.
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Hey Francis, Ian’s Lutheran, so he’d have to agree… 🙂
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Read the comments at Roissy’s blog if you want some data about his traffic. Anything else is wishful thinking. Count up how many commenters were made into real men.
I think I recall maybe one or two readers who wrote in to say thanks for helping them get over their inability to connect with women and who didn’t immediately choose to fall into a life of easy sex with varieties of women. Great, good for Roissy.
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Readers are NOT commentariat. You may find a dozen idiots anywhere, but you’re sure to find them in high-traffic comment threads (everywhere… read the puritan jackasses who fawn over Krugman’s columns some time). It attracts a certain kind of narcissist… who do not seem to mind the incredibly low SNR.
No. I studiously avoid reading Roissy’s commentariat, and can unequivocally recommend everyone else do the same. In fact, I don’t read him very much at all, except when someone else points out a particularly interesting post. (E.g., his recent linkage to a study of the pill and divorce rates… wouldn’t have heard that from my priest, (hmmm???)) Certainly there are worthier manosphere voices, such as Dalrock, Vox Day, and Elusive Wapiti, but even they all point to Roissy and Ferdinand Bardamu as seminal, even if more or less disagreeable, sources. It is simply inescapable that without those two, there would not be such a thing as a manosphere, a “red” pill, and at least 100s of 1000s of men converted away from feminist indoctrination. To hear you tell it, Andrew, it seems you’d take the feminist indoctrination instead? Of course we’d like impeccable leaders… but I’ll tip my hat to any leader who single-handedly starts and sustains a full-frontal assault on the feminist establishment as brilliantly as those two.
Of course, now they could leave the scene (Ferd already has AFAIK) and things would go along swimmingly, and perhaps I’ll grant we might even all be better off. But credit goes where credit is due. That’s simple courtesy.
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Okay, so what about those links (to Dalrock) above? How many souls have been lost thru Focus on the Family, or the movie Fireproof, or the ministry of Mars Hill Church? More… or less, than Roissy?? After all, they’re all mixing truth with lies… Come on, gimme an estimate: Who condemns more souls to hell, the guy who believes (and advertises) the ordinary laws of morality do not apply to him? Or the guy who invents or propagates false ones in the name of Christ?
Well, let me put it this way: my strong suspicion is that someone who’s been listening regularly to Focus on the Family will on average be far more receptive to traditionalist arguments than someone coming from Roissy’s place.
Even if you are right that Focus on the Family and Mark Driscoll condemn more souls to hell than Roissy, that to me is an argument to therefore avoid Focus on the Family, not an argument to embrace Roissy. Not to go ad Hitlerum on you and prove Godwin’s law, but if the Nazis had trenchant criticisms of communism, I don’t think it follows that traditional Christians in Germany should have therefore allied with the Nazis. The appropriate response would have been to condemn both communism and nazism and refuse to be associated with either.
Or, look at it this way: I was introduced to traditionalism through Bonald’s old site, and then though his site, I quickly encountered Laura Wood’s site and Larry Auster’s site. Had those three writers been linking to Roissy frequently and approvingly, I think the probability is very high that I would have written traditionalism off from the get-go. I suspect there are many others who would feel similarly.
Hey Francis, Ian’s Lutheran, so he’d have to agree… 🙂
Haha!
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As I said, I think honest amoralism is (in the aggregate) less dangerous than dishonest moralism. They are, of course, both dangerous… but so is everything… except for blue marshmallows. Honest amoralism may be found in all of the most successful and stable societies in earth’s history. Dishonest moralism is the source of most of our troubles. Only the latter has the general tendency to lead away from the truth. The other may very well lead toward it.
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Nick, to hear you tell it Roissy has single-handedly defeated feminism. Or at least was pivotal in creating the infrastructure that will one day defeat feminism. Whereas I look around and see feminism and leftism growing and strengthening every day. The only public, meaningful, sizeable anti-feminist movement I see in the world is the one opposing same-sex marriage in France today (curiously, to my knowledge, this potentially world-historical movement is essentially absent from the right-wing blogosphere outside Laura Wood and the Orthosphere and I think Mangan’s). What is the motivation behind this movement? Here is part of the manifesto to one of the traditionalist groups participating, Antigones:
“Femen, you affirm that a woman’s fight is feminist, we say that it is feminine.
“Femen, you affirm that women’s rights are defended with bared breasts, we say that they are acquired through dignity.
“Femen, you affirm that religion is alienation; we say that for many of us it is the way to freedom and self-realisation.
“Femen, you affirm that machismo dominates society and you combat men. We answer that it is only with men that we can truly become women, whole and complete.”
The manosphere does not talk this way. The manosphere is a giant mixed bag but to the extent that it owes much to Roissy then it will never inspire change on a meaningful scale. What generates the motivation needed for anything that reaches deep and spreads wide? Bruce Charlton is on point again today:
In a world without motivation, nothing else matters – because motivation is an aspect of courage, without motivation there can be no courage because there is no reason for it; and without courage there can be no virtue.
Nothing motivates but religion, and for us – who lack it – nothing matters but getting religion;
http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2013/06/2008-we-were-warned-but-it-did-no-good.html
Is Roissy any kind of leader? Can he show us the courage we need to defeat our enemies? Let’s see what Mark Richardson at Oz Conservative has said:
Even Roissy, who runs one of the most influential of these sites, has picked up on this theme: he claims that conservatives sanctify women and that this leads to the,
‘ laws, policies, and cultural beliefs that are anti-male, and which we in the West are soaking in today.’
So is Roissy then someone who is better placed to lead a men’s movement? A movement of solidarity between men to overcome such adversity?
That would be no.
Roissy, in the very same article, wants to illustrate just how lacking in moral superiority women are. So he reveals the fact that he has regularly bedded married women. He has bedded married women even when their husbands were attempting to contact them, trying to find out where they were.
Not a great basis for a men’s movement, is it? Roissy believes that other men’s wives are fair game for himself and his followers. It is a selfish hedonism that pits men against each other in more serious ways than feminism ever devised.
And nor is Roissy’s view of men better than that of the misandrist Greenberg. Greenberg may think that women are superior, but Roissy believes the following of men:
‘Women are vile creatures at heart, just as men are. An ugly truth, Mr. Greenberg’
So we get to be equally vile. Feminists think that men are vile and Roissy ends up agreeing.
http://ozconservative.blogspot.com/2010/03/so-who-is-on-side-of-men.html
The right-wing blogosphere (orthosphere, manosphere, secular) is an ant-hill on an ant-hill. I’m doubtful any large scale change will come about because of what a few people write on the Internet. What we’re doing is preparing the remnant, perhaps laying some of the intellectual foundations for the new leadership on the other side. But on the sordid topic of Roissy, I’m going to stick with team Auster/Wood/Charlton/Richardson.
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I thought this discussion was interesting enough that I would participate as an atheist.
Andrew Writes: “Is Roissy any kind of leader? Can he show us the courage we need to defeat our enemies?” Is Roissy a leader? He’s a blogger, you read him to understand, and possibly manipulate the world around you.
” ‘Women are vile creatures at heart, just as men are. An ugly truth, Mr. Greenberg’ So we get to be equally vile?”
Isn’t that the doctrine of original sin?
I’m more inclined to follow NBSs’ (if “steves” isn’t a plural where does the apostrophe go?) line in the interesting debate above, predominantly because although I’m an atheist, my exposure to dark enlightenment ideas has made me act “more manly (more proactive, more dominant, more stoical, physically stronger, more stable, more disciplined, masturbate less, more goal oriented, more realistic and comfortable in their own skin, less passive-agressive and wishy-washy and emotionally reactive, with better personal health and grooming habits).”
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Hi Tryptophan: Chalk up another victory for better grooming habits!! You are not far from the Kingdom 😉
“Nick B. Steves” is a (rather hastily contrived and poorly designed) made up name, but real people are named “Steves” (go figure! that’s why I had to add the “B.”)… so with respect to them… I s’pect the possessive would be Steves’, the plural Steveses, and the plural possessive Steveses’… although acronymification (every word in English may be verbed… and thence nounified) does sometimes throw a monkey into such principles.
[Addendum…]
” ‘Women are vile creatures at heart, just as men are. An ugly truth, Mr. Greenberg’ So we get to be equally vile?”
Isn’t that the doctrine of original sin?
Not exactly. The doctrine of original sin… well… I’m not even sure Andrew and I would agree on it precisely… but the Catholic take on it is that it is simply inborn concupiscence (tendency toward sin), which under ordinary circumstances leads people to actually sin, and therefore earn the wrath of God, and therefore need redemption by grace, yada, yada. So I don’t think finding out women are sinful creatures is a) anything new (it’s in the Bible, duh!); or b) any justification for objectively evil behavior. I think where evolutionary psychology happens to agree with ancient, clear-eyed observation about the psychological differences between men and women is really more about brute facts. What one does with those facts, good vs. evil, is an exercise for the reader. People can be manipulated. This is no news to Plato or Jesus. Good people can manipulate people to do good, which is all good. And bad people can manipulate people to do evil, which is evil.
But it does no one any good to deny the (increasingly obvious) truth. That is to lie, or at least to perpetuate one, and that is per se evil. To expose the lie is per se good. If one turns around and uses true knowledge for evil ends, then that is evil… but it doesn’t negate the original good that was done in exposing the lie.
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