…the Cathedral stole Christianity…
With all due respect to Machiavelli and Dostoyevsky, it came to my attention at Foseti’s (where everything always starts) via the Reactosphere’s blogless, nameless, and most capable of anti-crypto-meta-anti-iconoclasts, Handle:
The leadership of that [post-Cathedral] society would realize that they would need to attend to the mass population’s moral needs. To create the kind of society you want to live in means doing what one can to shape the inner-motivations of behavior of the people into neighbors you’d like to live next to, employees you’d like to have, etc.
They’d take all their Dark Knowledge and conclude what Spandrell (and, to an extent, me and Peter A. Taylor, and I think Moldbug) have concluded – which is what GK Chesterton said – the brains of most people are too fertile a place for religious-like thinking. You can’t make a “less-wrong” “everybody’s a disciplined Bayesian ultra-rationalist” society. You need a substitute or alternative religion-ish thing to put in there that gets you what you want to achieve socially. A set of irrational unfalsifiable beliefs. A structure of taboos. Constant Reinforcement through social pressures and all the opinion-making institutions. And, if you’re really confident you’re doing it right – a heresy mechanism that deters people from openly questioning the system and undermining all the hard work it took to decrease social-entropy and build social-capital. A set of Platonic-Straussian noble lies (and maybe your next generation of elites will even forget that they are lies) to keep the harmony going. A line of thinking that goes back thousands of years.
Why is this the Darkest Enlightenment? Because it’s exactly what the DE Community (“The DEC”?) is complaining about with the Cathedral, and what the Cathedral was complaining about with the Church, and the Church was probably complaining about with something else, etc. Celsus lost to Origen, after all.
The real ugly truth, the real harsh reality, is that we probably can’t do away with suppressing some ugly truths and harsh realities – the very things we complain about…
So it seems… we DO need a religion after all, so that the post-Reaction® (i.e., simply sane and just) world can run smoothly again. I, for one, never doubted it. But I’ve already got one… i.e., a religion. And while it is often (sometimes justifiably) mistaken for the Bells & Incense Branch of Cathedral Central, it once was the most powerful reactionary institution on Planet Three, and I say easily can be again.
Sharlach, quickly acclimating to his new role as “Doctor of the Reaction” (the previous one having perished in a freak gardening accident), expands on this “darkest” thought. A bunch of spergy atheists cannot run the world (or a polis or an ice cream shoppe) as if it were populated by a bunch of spergy atheists. Indeed: Culture matters. And there is no culture without a cult.
So what is the rhetoric of the Dark Enlightenment? What myths can we construct from our collection of harsh facts about man, intelligence, social cohesion and entropy, and the rest of it? What do our pretty lies sound like?
I have no idea. But I can offer this consolation: they won’t be pretty lies. In its denial of nature and reality, the Cathedral mythology intersects with reality only at the best of times; the rest of the time, its myths are pure sophistry. However, given its commitment to accepting the harshest facts of existence, the Dark Enlightenment is in a less tyrannical position. Its lies will not be lies so much as sugary additives to make the bitter medicine go down easier.
And I can, more or less, give a solid “Amen” to that. But I ask here, as I did here, why all this hand-wringing over building a new religious narrative for the post-Cathedral world, when we already have a perfectly serviceable one, that most people happen (at least nominally) to believe?
I’ll comment more once I switch over from academic work mode—but I think with this post you’ve perfected your quasi-British, semi-sardonic writing style. Are you sure you’re American?
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I read alot of Brits… and also watch alot of British drama with the wife… on netflix… in bed. </wink> Did I mention I have 8 kids?
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Love the blog, Nick. Please, please, keep going. I’m trying to honor you with a serious comment here; at very least, I hope you don’t mind it too much.
Your post is irenic and apologetic, which is good and unexceptionable, but let me make an implicit Catholic point in your argument more explicitly: the truth of the sacraments is prior to the truth of reaction — but the truth of the sacraments is more congruent with reaction than with the Cathedral and all its works and empty promises.
First, I submit that professing that the truth of the sacraments is prior to any truth in reaction is the foundation of any truth in reaction, and indeed is the ultimate ground and defense of reaction on the hoof (if ‘reaction’ does in fact mean ‘sane and just’).
Second, I note an interesting fact. Devout Catholics have started to (re)sense the foundational role truly ‘sane and natural’ sexuality plays, not just in Catholic ‘ideas’, but in the Church’s sacramental life — her very heart.
In a speech given to Catholic Citizens of Illinois on September 13, 2002, Fr. Joseph Fessio, SJ highlighted three paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that he said served as a ‘litmus test’ for Catholic orthodoxy in the present day.
CCC 1577: “Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination . . . For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.” CCC 2357: “Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that ‘homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.’ . . . Under no circumstances can they be approved.” CCC 2366: “The Church . . . teaches that ‘each and every marriage act be ordered per se to the procreation of human life.'”
“These are the controversial issues of our time,” said Father Fessio in his speech, “the issues that arouse the opposition, but which the majority of theologians in this country [that is, the Cathedral’s theologians] do not accept to be true.”
How interesting that orthodoxy and the Cathedral would be so opposed on these very points, and that Fr. Fessio claimed that Catholics who have no problems with them, are very unlikely to be ‘nuanced’ in any others, with the reverse also being true.
Third, some devout and acute recent Catholic theologians note the very close union between the necessity of priests to be ‘vir’ and the covenantal nature of the sacrifice of the Mass, in which the Bridegroom gives Himself, and takes to Himself, His bridal Church.
Put crudely and going far beyond what I have ever read in public, priests must be ‘vir’ because the central sacrament of the Church, the Eucharist, is ‘heteronormative’. Even more, it would seem to follow that as the priest acts in the person of the High Priest, the Bridegroom, then a priest, who must thus be ‘vir’, should also desirably (‘normatively’, if you will) be both heterosexual and continent, as the Bridegroom takes One Bride alone, and cleaves to no other.
‘Taking the Church back’ cannot be merely a project of power. Ultimately, as always, ‘taking the Church back’ must mean returning to the realities of the sacramental life of the Church, which thankfully remain prior to our power to add or detract.
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The deal was that the King and Lords would have unofficial but substantial influence over the appointment of Bishops, Abbots, etc, (cutting the Holy Roman Emperor out of it) and thus have substantial indirect influence over the appointment of popes.
Today’s Church seems to have cut a similar deal with the Cathedral, but the Cathedral, unlike the Kings, is in the business of pushing a contrary belief system.
I think a monotheistic religion is only going to thrive in patriarchal society, and a monotheistic religion with a stern but loving god is only going to thrive in a monogamous patriarchal society.
So, patriarchy and monogamy have to restored, before Christianity can be restored.
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Well, you’re doing your part, Jim.
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Oh Dear. Power. The Cathedral is tottering. Figure out power first, message ..well there’s already a couple of ready made ones people are at least “nominally” behind. Politically they’re behind the Constitution, I daresay I favor that with the American Democracy 1830-1933, and of course there’s Christianity. I consider “let’s steal it back” a WIN.
Then there’s Jim. He’s been on the pipe again. Do read down to his hysterical Sex Education Movie: Romance Movie Girls/Porn Movie Guys.
http://blog.jim.com/culture/the-next-official-belief-system.html
I’m still laughing.
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at some point i need to get my thoughts organized and come up with a way to convince just about all of you that the mystical weirdness Evola gets into is actually a crucial point to understanding both what is wrong with the world today and how to build a functioning society afterwards. some pointers – religion is important because it calls the members of society to consider a higher existence, enabling values such as honor and duty to be taken seriously. furthermore, Evola talks about the loss of (the sense of) purpose to activity in the modern world – considering the state of mental health in the West today, I think the dire effect that loss has had is becoming clear.
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Catholicism has been dead since 1517. All they have ever got since is new NAM converts. Good luck taking the Vatican back. I wouldn’t want it even if you gave it away for free.
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@Spandrell
All they have ever got since is new NAM converts.
Well they got me. I wasn’t born this way. So <razz> 😉
Sometimes the Vatican leads, sometimes it follows the Church. The Pope should lead, but if he does, he is constrained to be somehow, even if sophistically, consonant with 2000 years of authoritative teaching. The Church can never have been wrong. This puts popes and all bishops on a pretty tight leash and makes them pretty piss poor advocates to the Cathedral… no matter how hard they try or wish to be.
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@raptros_
I doubt I’ll take much convincing.
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You wrote:
>But I ask here, as I did here, why all this hand-wringing over building a new religious narrative for the post-Cathedral world, when we already have a perfectly serviceable one, that most people happen (at least nominally) to believe?
The problem with Christianity is that it doesn’t have enough active miracle-workers. If the Christians can get their miracles back online, they’re set to go.
Let me unpack the notion of miracles.
The shaman is the person who sees spirits firsthand. The shaman is the person who experiences the mystical directly.
By contrast, the priest doesn’t have to see spirits. The priest has faith. The priest receives the revealed dogma and repeats it faithfully.
Priests tend to organize into priesthoods. Shamans are always individuals. And shamans don’t need to memorize the acceptable dogmas – shamans just listen to what the spirits tell them.
I think that miracles are likely to come from the shamans, not the priests.
So … if you want to revitalize Christianity, make sure the Church is nurturing its mystics.
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“A bunch of spergy atheists cannot run the world (or a polis or an ice cream shoppe) as if it were populated by a bunch of spergy atheists”
Indeed, but I think you’re even seeding too much frame in that sentence. It implies that they are right, but the ignorant masses are holding them back. I don’t think they are right at all.
Let’s take some spergy atheist whose at least +2SD in IQ. No doubt this sperg is going to do what everyone else does, latch onto whatever “logical” believe system happens to increase the status of the sperg himself. So you get nerds believing in Rand because their high IQ means they have above average earnings and they want to pay less taxes. However, why would a person with the exact same “logical” ability but an IQ of 90 accept that frame? He’s endorsing a system that will lower his status. It’s dumb. It’s not logical for his interests.
Anyone who claims they are “a disciplined Bayesian ultra-rationalist” is usually just someone advocating a system that benefits them or recognizes that the act of advocating that system (even if it doesn’t get implemented) will benefit them. A world full of “spergy atheists” still won’t be able to agree on anything because they will still have conflicting interests based on their circumstances and gifts and will therefore always be pushing “logical” systems that are in conflict with one another.
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I have not seen the equal of the Founders theory of religion and government: good government and the society from which it came was impossible without a moral and religious people, yet to combine government with religion was to corrupt both religion and government. That was of course their judgement of the European experience. A man’s religion became overtaxed when it attempted to keep more than his own soul in order.
It was thought that good government relies on truths that only function in the perpetual centrifugal tension of opposing forces. In public as well as private, ambition against ambition, in defect of better motives. Our ruling elite cannot distinguish sweet and sour from wine and sewage.
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Indeed, but I think you’re even seeding too much frame in that sentence. It implies that they are right, but the ignorant masses are holding them back. I don’t think they [spergy atheists] are right at all.
I did not mean to concede the frame. Only that some of my best DE friends are atheists, that a subset of them might be a bit “spergy”, but that they do understand what is wrong, and they are willing at least to believe what is before their eyes.
Absolutely, people, especially +2σ people, want to run the world for the benefit of themselves… and a world of absolute freedom definitely benefits +2σ people. This is why most of the non-theist DE crowd is post-libertarian… i.e., reactionary but with libertarian sympathies. Pretty much exACTly like Moldbug… loves freedom, doesn’t have a problem with sodomites, IVF, human cloning (probably) or a million other things that our Progressive Masters will… but he realizes, in contradiction to his own social programming, that you cannot run a polis that way… and 15th century Italy was better run, even if far from perfectly, than 20th (to say nothing of 21st) century America.
If you care about humanity, and maybe to an extent “spergy” people don’t, you have to care about Deep Heritage, about how neurologically typical people think, behave, and are motivated. It might help alot if you personally knew and cared for a few…
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So, patriarchy and monogamy have to restored, before Christianity can be restored.
Amen, Jim!
[Edit: And that is something lay people can do largely in spite of what their brain damaged priests happen to lay on them.]
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@JohnK
Thanks for visiting and your comments are most welcome. I sense the same thing you are sensing. There is still a long way to go. I have, for example, not heard contraception mentioned from the lectern at mass since my arrival into the Church in ’06. The closest it got was our bishop saying something to effect of “every marital act open to life”. But the marxist and effeminant priests are aging, becoming increasingly irrelevant, and slowly disappearing. All the young priests are devoutly orthodox, traditional, funny, and supremely energetic. The future belongs to them. They will be our Bishops some day. The future also belongs to devout Catholic breeders like me…
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@zhai2nan2
No miracle is greater than that of a redeemed life, and this power, from the Holy Ghost, remains well within the power of ordinary priests (and ordinary lay people for that matter) to dispense.
[Edit: Although that is not to say that I don’t welcome a few Shamans… so long as they lead in the right direction. The experience in the Catholic Church over the past 50 years or so is that the lone-wolves are all trailblazing straight toward the Cathedral.]
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@jamzw
No doubt the American Founders founded the best of all possible demotic republics… It’s lasted this long… or thereabouts. America has benefited from having a supremely good people (cf. Toqueville), and that surely is a large part of her success.
Note, however, that the Founders did not deny the establishment of state religions, which (I think) all of them had in 1789. It was the Whig impulse that swept those into the dustbin… Only quite lately has the first ammendment come quite clearly to apply all governmental entities whatsoever.
But nature abhors a vacuum… and where established (official) religions are swept away, new ones, unofficial ones step into their place. Jim Donald is a many trick pony but one of his very best tricks is documenting how official official religions are much more benign that unofficial official ones.
I think a strong part of the Reactionary Consensus® (i.e., among Post-libertarian secular Rightists, Christian traditionalists, and Ethno-nationalists, etc.) is that a religion like traditional Christianity, fairly tolerant in metaphysics and pretty stern on the 10 commandments, is necessary to unify and guide a people in a polis.
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My objection to this is twofold:
One, Christianity doesn’t deify the monarch directly. Two, Christianity is, in my opinion, at its roots a leveller institution.
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Hi Wilhelm, thanks for visiting. It is easy to see why you think that. Christianity’s track record in preserving order and conserving the civilization which it itself has largely built is rather mixed. Although the Catholics have much to answer for over the past 100 years, I believe my separated brethren bear most of the blame for the late eschatological immanentization.
To (1) true… Christianity does not possess any special charism in discovering the best forms of human government. It simply assumes human governments exist, that they “bear not the sword in vain,” and it is the duty of all men to obey them.
To (2) well… I see how it certainly looks that way. I myself came to faith among Baptists (never was there a more levelling sect)… but I came to my senses when I realized we cannot very well have 1.5 billion popes running around. For most of her history, the Church has accepted hierarchy as natural and necessary. And tho’ She is quite clear on the moral responsibilities of persons within that hierarchy, She has no special charism to tear it down. (When misguided men speak in her name thus, it just makes Her look stupid. ) Even St. Paul did not command Philemon to grant freedom to Onesimus, even tho’ he could’ve. Modernist clerics are always trying to get into the cool kids club. But that doesn’t change a 2000 year history of very embarrassing and irreformable teaching. This I find in the Catholic Church’s favor.
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There’s no such thing as government without religion. Memetic nature abhors a vacuum.
Or is there? Are there any examples?
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Are there any examples?
I suspect, you’d probably have to look “down” more than up in terms of civilizational achievement. Animism is a very weak sort of religion that tends to arise in societies with a weak sort of government. (Or is that vice-versa?)
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If reactionaries were to steal Christianity back, it would make things a heck of a lot easier.
But your post has an important, semi-obvious implication. You’re no longer talking about building a small community of “real Christians”. You’re now talking about organizing a society as a whole on a basis of “real Christianity”. That means taking on (and taking out) the various left-Christian heresies that dominate the world, or at least cleaning them out of a particular jurisdiction.
That’s a tall order. Probably a lot more difficult than the alternative of simply waiting for the heretical left-Christian churches to empty out on their own.
But if it can be accomplished, it would certainly make things easier. As an agnostic reactionary who is agnostic about most stuff, I have to say that I don’t have a lot of faith in the ability of my fellow agnostics to recognize the problem, formulate an alternative and fight to replace the Cathedral with it. We’re a bit too… agnostic for that.
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Animism is a very weak sort of religion that tends to arise in societies with a weak sort of government
Vietnamese traditional religion was a mixture of animism and ancestor worship, and they had a strong and noble aristocracy led by a fairly powerful king.
I suspect that what you are calling animism is what I would call Zoism, which correlates with weak or nonexistent paternity, with the absence of fatherhood.
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For anybody unfamiliar with it, this essay might be of interest:
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/oliver.html
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@SHWAT
Thanks for that vote of confidence. Sadly, the Left-leaning Christian churches have long since emptied out. Church attendance in the Cathedral religion is strictly optional… as optional as Conspicuous Acts of Inclusion are required. It would go a long way if Cathedralite religions would enforce Sunday attendance on pain of hell-fire, but they long ago dispensed with hell… and Sunday mornings are nothing but therapy… If you wanna skip out on therapy… well you must not feel a need for it. I am as agnostic about the therapy part as you are.
@Jim
Yes, I suppose that “Zoism” is more the thing I was talking about. Anybody who reveres ancestors is probably on at least a semi-sane path.
@Nick L
If I haven’t heard of it, it’s news to me. I’ll get back to you on that.
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The sweet nectar of truth is a taste one cannot forget…. Only weak minds or minds bound in a cocoon of lies, who never heard about other options or have no curiosity to follow a thought to its conclusion, can remain safely swaddled in faith. Beware, spergy atheists will be harder to eradicate than the likes of you expect.
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@Raphael:
I’m not aware of anyone calling for eradication.
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@SHWAT:
That means taking on (and taking out) the various left-Christian heresies that dominate the world, or at least cleaning them out of a particular jurisdiction.
The left-Christian heresies would need at least to be contained to the less influential classes… But of course the only reason they arose in the first place was to put a comfortable distance between smart and powerful whites and their stupid and weak cousins. If they lose their intellectual cache, then they’re probably toast anyway.
I’m actually pretty comfortable with Jim’s notion of an established Church: Modest (latitudinarian) when it comes
requiring right thinking when it comesto purely metaphysical propositions, and rather stern when it comes to matters of more immediate earthly import. After all, if I had my way, the USA, or the several states, would have always have had an established Church… and it certainly would not have been mine. I guess I could be happy living in MD.[Edited]
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I have not seen the equal of the Founders theory of religion and government: good government and the society from which it came was impossible without a moral and religious people, yet to combine government with religion was to corrupt both religion and government
Which doctrine they inherited from Cromwell, the puritans, and the dissenters, whose officially unofficial state sponsored religion was ten times as oppressive as the officially official state sponsored religion of the Tories.
It is natural and unavoidable for state and religion to marry.
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The left-Christian heresies would need at least to be contained to the less influential classes
Progressivism is optimized for propagation through the state. Under a hostile state, where progressivism is not taught in government schools, broadcast on government airwaves, where progressives could not get government employment, run for office, attend the most prestigious universities, etc, progressivism would disappear almost overnight. Left Christian heresies are a creation of progressivism and state power, hence also would disappear.
I hope but do not expect that the vacuum would be filled by traditional (1950s) Christianity. What do I expect that until we get a generation of people raised in patriarchal monogamous families, the vacuum would be filled by Zoistic and Manistic religious beliefs such as wicca, astrology, spiritualism, and New Age.
Only after at least one, and probably several, generations of people raised in a society where monogamy and patriarchy was normal, normative, and socially dominant, would an officially Christian official religion be possible.
And in that environment, something else might well fill the gap other than Christianity, Darwinism has pulled out the logical justification for a creator God, and that logical justification is not coming back. Perhaps the vacuum might be filled something good, but likely something hostile and dangerous that needs suppression, such as Islam.
Shinto is a religion largely about being Japanese, about the connection between living and dead Japanese, and the connection between living Japanese and the land of Japan. I would like to see a similar belief system for Western Civilization and about western civilization, but such a belief system would take time to grow. It would start by re-westernizing Christianity, and nordicizing Jesus. No more Jewish undead zombie Jesus. (You will notice the Pope wears a crucifix that depicts Jesus as not merely dead, but as dessicated, withered, monstrous, horrifying, and undead.) It would make ancient western cultural achievements in music and art once again central to the rituals of its belief system, celebrating the greatness of western culture. It would fondly remember Charles the hammer, the Battle of Tours, the holy Roman empire, the crusades and colonialism.
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>Shinto is a religion largely about being Japanese, about the connection between living and dead Japanese, and the connection between living Japanese and the land of Japan. I would like to see a similar belief system for Western Civilization and about western civilization, but such a belief system would take time to grow.
Religions don’t grow out of cerebral proofs or historical insights.
Religions grow from mystics who tell normal people about how spirits have been talking to the mystics.
If you want to start a new religion, you need somebody who actually believes he is in touch with paranormal reality.
You can’t just say, “It would be good for society for the masses to believe a noble lie.”
You need someone who can preach a message while sincerely believing it to be true.
I note that as long as there have been human beings, some human beings have believed that they have conversed with ghosts.
If you want to start a new religion for the West, find a Westerner who believes that he can talk to the ghosts of wise Westerners.
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If you want to start a new religion, you need somebody who actually believes he is in touch with paranormal reality.
I am pretty sure that no one involved in setting up Restoration Anglicanism thought they were directly in touch with paranormal reality – but then none of them would have admitted to setting up a new religion either.
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Yeah, Zhai2nan2, gotta go with (non-theist) Jim on this one (LOL). I am not particularly interested in starting a new religion. Christianity gained hegemony because it
wasoutcompeted paganism in the broader western world. It just so happens that a particularly virulent pietist/calvinist strain of it arose in England and was transported to America where it found no natural enemies. If ancient and medieval Catholicism killed off paganism, what chance has paganism against the Cathedral? There do exist relatively intact and undamaged variants of Christianity which are the best realistic hope supressing, quarantining, or killing off the Cathedral memetic virus.[Edited]
[Edited]
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It’s not as though Catholicism doesn’t have a deep mystical tradition. If mysticism is what is needed to fight the Cathedral, then John of the Cross ought to be our Patron Saint.
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It’s not as though Catholicism doesn’t have a deep mystical tradition. If mysticism is what is needed to fight the Cathedral, then John of the Cross ought to be our Patron Saint.
Yep. Catholicism is a pretty big tent, and it really doesn’t take much to get it working right… I mean with the whole pretty easy devotions, supremely
likelight penances, the whole venial/mortal sin distinction, etc.. It’s like linux: stable core that isn’t going anywhere, with lots of customization options.Protestantism exorcised (heh!) most of that mysticism stuff. So, as a convert (from low-church Protestantism), I actually don’t grok it very deeply and tend to forget about it. I’ll always be a fish who knows he’s wet I guess…
[Edited]
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Nick, you need to have your Dark (Enlightenment) Night of the Soul.
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Wasn’t Moldbug’s red pill with the bona fide sodium metal core enough?
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BTW, Jim, you’re consistent lauding of Restoration Anglicanism reminds me: Orthosphere’s Kristor Lawson is in fact Anglican of some sort, and not Catholic. You might have have known, but I think it points out how close those two branches of Christianity are once you strip away the calvinist/pietistic (“pharisaic” in your terms) accretions.
Also Larry Auster was a rather disaffected Episcopalian for many years until he converted to Catholicism less than a week before his death in an Anglican Use parish.
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Wasn’t Moldbug’s red pill with the bona fide sodium metal core enough?
No, that was the product of Moldbug’s Dark Night.
Prayer, fasting, and contemplation, following your despair, regardless of where it leads you. “Knowing you are wet” is a prerequisite, not an impediment.
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I agree. Like you I was not born Catholic.
I note that we both comment occasionally both at Outside In and Orthosphere. I am beginning to think the the philosophical future of the DE can be found in a synthesis of these two communities of thought.
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@Chevalier
I note that we both comment occasionally both at Outside In and Orthosphere. I am beginning to think the the philosophical future of the DE can be found in a synthesis of these two communities of thought.
Hi Chevalier, thanks for visiting.
I doubt the Orthosphere would like to be part of the DE proper, being rather down on the implications of the “D” part… but it has been, and is increasingly noticed as being, pretty much the intellectual center of Reactionary Christianity. But if the shoe fits… They seem pretty comfortable with neoreaction, and I’m not sure there’s an appeciable difference, at least at the PR level.
I happen to be a regular at my local branch of the Orthosphere meetups… under my real Christian name, not my Secular Right name as here.
My own apologetic work especially at Nick Land’s (Outside In) in defense of genuinely reactionary Christianity owning a seat at the table of (Neo)reaction led to me starting this humble blog, if for no other reason to document the consensus—a Reactionary Fusion®—that is shared between Traditional Christians, Ethno-nationalists, and Techno-capitalists (originally named together by Spandrell here and christened by yours truly as his eponymous trichotomy here). James Goulding who was unknown to me as little as six months ago has presented a more nuanced taxonomy here.
So, yes, absolutely I see synthesis between the spectrum of Secular Rightists, many of whom I have over there on the right, and my own native Christian/Catholic trads. It is my main reason to exist.
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So let me make sure that I understand all of this.
Jim doesn’t actually believe in revealed religion, or miracles, or a lot of stuff, but he wants to use religion as a kind of memetic warfare.
And the Catholics actually *do* believe in Catholicism and miracles, and they don’t mind collaborating with non-theists like Jim. (See, I thought that the typical Catholic believer was more like Bonald – the kind of guy who would say, “No, you really have to believe in our doctrine to fight beside us.”)
I guess this explains why the Pope recently said that non-theists can go to Heaven. He must have had Jim in mind.
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@Nick Land
regarding comment at 2013/05/24 at 1:35 am
>For anybody unfamiliar with it, this essay might be of interest:
>http://home.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/oliver.html
I read it, I disagreed with it, and I posted about it.
http://vultureofcritique.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/revilo-p-oliver-apparently-didnt-study-the-paranormal-very-well/
Call me crazy, but I regard the spiritual as more real than the material. I cleave to Pythagoras, Plotinus, and Isaac Newton.
I have great admiration for Oliver’s talents in his specialty – ancient languages – but I disagree with his conclusions regarding the philosophy of science, epistemology, etc.
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@Zhai
First of all, I doubt Bonald said that. If he did, he’s wrong. That’s just stupid.
The “typical Catholic believer” is ignorant of their own faith, uses contraception, shows up at mass twice a year, and probably recycles. I am not typical and neither is Bonald.
I hesitate to speak for Jim, but “to use religion as a kind of memetic warfare” seems quite far from my understanding of him or of common sense. It has come to the attention of pretty much anyone who thinks deeply about societies and how they run, that societies run best when there is some sort of shared “Deep Heritage“. To quote myself,
You don’t have to be a Christian believer, or a believer in the supernatural of anykind, to notice that successful (healthy, wealthy, dominant, peaceful, safe, effective) societies tend to have a some sort of common heritage which unites them and heads off a lot of social pathologies. In fact, you’d have to be an ignoramus not to notice. There are, of course, many ignoramuses… whether of the atheist sort or of the Christian sort.
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I regard the spiritual as more real than the material.
I would agree with that. But the material world is where I (and my wife and children) happen to live. A rightly ordered society is a big deal, and material deeds must follow our spiritual intentions.
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Maybe I’m misreading Bonald at:
http://orthosphere.org/2013/05/23/what-is-the-orthosphere/#comment-19501
>In that case, the Dark Enlightenment and the Orthosphere are carrying out a useful division of labor. Liberalism makes both empirical and non-empirical claims. Both are false and pernicious, and we’ve got a group of people working to debunk each.
My interpretation of that post and its comments is that Bonald sees the Orthosphere as distinct, particularly on point 4:
>4) The intellectual defensibility of orthodox Christianity
>The above is pretty self-explanatory. We often deal with objections to Christian doctrine based on their alleged internal incoherence or incompatibility with the genuine discoveries of modern science and history. While not imagining that the Triune Godhead can be completely comprehended by our mortal minds this side of paradise, we do claim that objections to revealed doctrines can be dealt with, and we refuse to retreat into appeals of “mystery”.
Jim’s viewpoint, if I understand him correctly, is that miracles are not real and were never real.
Bonald’s point “4,” if I understand it correctly, includes the notion that miracles were and are real, and can be rationally explained.
Now, perhaps even with this difference, Bonald is eager to work together with Jim. I just want to know what the other folks in the room believe on this point. I’d like to know who argues for materialism and who argues for its alternatives.
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Well, disagreeing about whether miracles are possible or whether miracles occurred in history is hardly tantamount to you having Bonald say “No, you really have to believe in our doctrine to fight beside us.” On the contrary, Bonald, whom I have found invariably articulate and sensible, seems to be saying the two branches are fighting the myths of liberalism on two distinct fronts (one metaphysical, one empirical), i.e., on the same “side”… which therefore includes “us”.
I’d like to know who argues for materialism and who argues for its alternatives.
You are making a false dichotomy there. It’s not either/or. Those who would counter the empirical claims of liberalism, would have to argue from a procedurally materialistic position. I.e., unless your attempt is to undercut empiricism per se as a way of knowing anything at all… which I (and St. Thomas Aquinas and most Catholics and most Christians would) find implausible… but which I also fear you actually may be saying.
Miracles are real, I agree, and may be rationally explained, but most are not, and certainly the central miracles of Christianity are not, accessible to empirical science. I am probably about as agnostic about THAT as Jim.
I believe those miracles on the basis of authority, not empiricism. I think if you trust in the latter, you are asking to lose your faith… eventually. Empirical knowledge is inherently tentative and therefore no basis for faith whatsoever.
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>unless your attempt is to undercut empiricism per se as a way of knowing anything at all… which I (and St. Thomas Aquinas and most Catholics and most Christians would) find implausible
I consider myself an empiricist, but I also spend a lot of brainpower writing arguments against materialism.
On the ethical side, I suppose I had better start writing up some arguments about the ethics of religious memetic warfare. That will take a while.
I haven’t read any Aquinas lately, but don’t forget his philosophical turnaround at the end of his life. He started burning his writings, because compared to infused contemplation, he considered them as worthless as dust and straw.
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He started burning his writings, because compared to infused contemplation, he considered them as worthless as dust and straw.
He may have, the Church doesn’t.
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